It's local election week and Kristjan Pihl tracked down Jüri Mõis — a man who was there at the birth of Estonia's business elite and later made a sharp turn into politics. He's someone who knows the inner workings of both worlds. Now 68 years old, a father of five and grandfather of nine, Mõis is technically retired, but he still has a sharp eye and a sharper tongue when he hears what he considers nonsense.

Sunday is a red-letter day for democracy, election day. Will the former Tallinn mayor put on his best tie and go do his civic duty in person?

These things can be done online these days, so I doubt I will be appearing anywhere. But I am excited and interested. It really is a red-letter day for democracy and we might even have a glass of wine once it's done.

How do you decide who gets your vote? Can you see charismatic people with ideas and force of will to improve things in the city?

There are quite a few. Life has gotten better, people have more free time and sometimes get the temptation to try and help society at large. So, there are people. It is another matter that "improving things" can carry a different meaning for different people. When we put together an election alliance with Urmas Sõõrumaa [for the 2017 local elections], we wanted to put an end to the nonsense in the city and decided to get together between three guys. Meelis Kubits was the third. But it soon turned out that we had diametrically different ideas about how one should go about improving things and running the city.

When you ran on the Tegus Tallinn (Active Tallinn) ticket in 2017, it wasn't a serious plan to get elected, was it?

The plan was very serious. My thinking was that I now had free time and that perhaps my first foray into politics [in the early 2000s] came at too difficult a time; that after a 17-year break, I could go and act as a duty officer and maintain order in the city council. I had no greater ambition and so I offered myself to the Reform Party, but it so happened they rejected me.

What do you mean they rejected you?

They said I would somehow branch out and create an alternative image for the party there. "You know, rowdy as you are."

Who specifically told you that while you are a fine businessman and banker, you're not a good fit for politics?

The head of the Tallinn branch.

Who was it back then?

[Current Reform Party leader] Kristen Michal, but then Sõõrumaa came and said he wanted to run too. That I'll do it if you're there too and let's shake on it. After that, it wasn't long until Michal invited me to join them after all, instead of taking potential Reform votes elsewhere, but I had already made a deal with Sõõrumaa — businessman to businessman. And I was not about to betray Sõõrumaa and say I'd go with Kristen Michal instead.

We did the math and came up short, which is when we decided to involve [Edgar] Savisaar and Olga Ivanova. From there came Mart Juur and Andrus Kivirähk's SITT (shit in Estonian –ed.) — Savisaar and Ivanova are Tegus Tallinn — joke. Anyway, we fell a little short [of the election threshold] with 4.8 percent of the vote, which didn't get us into the city council. Basically, we made the campaign more interesting. We put together a good program, we thought, of what should be done in Tallinn, which others probably read and perhaps also emulated.

Your involvement of Edgar Savisaar and Olga Ivanova shocked a lot of people and made them ask, is this a joke?

Why? I just cannot think of some people as bad in that way.

Listen, you felt uncomfortable yourself debating with them whether artists should be paid social benefits and other ways of throwing money out of a helicopter. Your body language suggested you weren't exactly comfortable.

That wasn't because of me. It was because the press was being unfair and neurotic. Edgar Savisaar was a well-known figure from the restoration of independence period, one of the big three, next to Mart Laar and Siim Kallas, and treating him as a hellhound one shouldn't even give the time of day was decidedly too much.

You didn't make the council, but at least you left your mark on Estonian political humor. The "Ärapanija" [current affairs satire show] did a pretty wild skit on you.

Frankly, I was surprised when Mart Juur made me and Sõõrumaa out to be faggots. That was the level of such things back then. But what can you do if that's what was on their minds.

That's politics for you.

Yes, the dirty side of it.

Did you become bitter?

I've never had reason to be bitter in this life.

Did you think, "why did I get myself in this mess?"

No, I don't have the ability to be that self-critical. Big wins and big losses — the life of an investor. As long as you're in the black at the end of the day, everything's fine. But that particular undertaking fell on the expenses side and we reaped little in the way of political gain.

Let us come to the current elections. Have you gleamed the main topic and what will decide the winner this time?

There is no core topic. We are doing very well and things will only improve. I see a new rise on the horizon. Trump now has the Russo-Ukrainian war on his radar. I see our economy starting to grow again. I see clear engines rooted in objective reasons.

When I served as mayor 20 years ago, we didn't even have kindergarten places for everyone. We have them now. Some politicians are saying we should lower kindergarten fees, while others suggest it should be free. It isn't a real problem.

So, what, Tallinn is finished?

No, it's not finished. It keeps on developing, but I will also say that it's too small. It's not big enough for local government management. When we were in the government back in 1999, we were on the verge of inviting foreign consultants [to Estonia] to rework the local government system. When they came, the first thing they said during cabinet meetings was that we should try and look decades ahead and that all successful local government reforms abroad have ended up with local governments no smaller than 1.5 million residents. Estonia had 229 local governments at the time. This riled up the Social Democrats in terms of capitalists trying to derail Estonia: "Things are different here, they don't know how the Estonian people have developed and suffered and things don't work like that here." Today, local governments number 78–79 if memory serves and I'd lower that number further.

I also feel more connected to the Tori Municipality in my dealings these days. That is where I see that local governments have become stronger in the past few years. You have a counterpart. They can prove their points in theory and lay down the law. So, things have improved greatly, even though it'd be better still if a single county was a single local government. (Estonia has 15 counties –ed.) I think this is the case in some place, like Hiiumaa and Saaremaa, but it'll take longer in the rest of Estonia. Hopefully, that day will dawn eventually.

What is the one thing Jüri Mõis would do as mayor of Tallinn next Monday?

There is no such thing. It's best when the rulers do not come into your life at all. When you can just have a barbeque and things just work out. It's not about building a ladder to the moon. There's no need. If there is one thing Estonians need, it's Rail Baltica, but I've also heard opinions to the contrary.

How to explain [Center Party leader] Mihhail Kõlvart's phenomenal success not just among Russian-speaking voters, but also Estonians? It is certain by today he will become mayor of Tallinn, am I right?

[Nods].

What has he done right?

It's like the fish schooling effect. You don't know in whose direction and why their heads suddenly turn. /.../ Russians' communication is something no one has been able to scientifically prove, in terms of how these mechanism work. It is an as of yet undescribed effect. Savisaar had it back in the day, while Jana Toom then had it for a short while. Today, it's Kõlvart. But he is a good choice in more than a few ways. He seems safe also for Estonians. It's like he jokes himself, that his mother was Korean, his father was an Estonian born in Kazakhstan, which obviously makes him Russian. He seems like a good choice in many ways. He's kin to everyone in one way or another and does not spark feelings of fear.

Are you not frightened by the fact that the election is about to go to a party that has been criminally punished not once, not twice, but three times? The critics are saying that we're entering another dark age of Center Party sinecure...

Perhaps you missed it, but all of that started moving in a new direction once the Internal Security Service [ISS] was put in charge of investigating local government corruption. The ISS used to only deal with state-level corruption, but after that, a lot of people started ending up in jail. Voters have never cared about [politicians'] criminal pasts. And that is the case everywhere, not just in Estonia.

So, it's okay to steal a little if you're otherwise a solid fellow?

Rather, having been through it [politics], no one else did anything differently. You know, cash donations from your mother-in-law's cupboard and all that stuff.

You said back then that Isamaa was doing the exact same thing?

Exactly!

Everyone was?

Everyone, absolutely.

[Isamaa's] Priit Sibul will say that he never noticed anything and that Mõis is talking crazy.

He would. Take the Port of Tallinn criminal case. It was pretty clear how it all worked. The trail led to the Reform Party, but then the investigation deadline came. My good friend Jüri Pihl (former interior minister and prosecutor general –ed.) used to say that the police have the full picture in half or more of all cases, they just can't always prove it. But it still sends a message. The port guys were sent a message too. Putting a specific person in jail isn't always the most important thing, but you can send a message and sent it will be.

For most people, campaigning starts when larger-than-life posters appear all over the city. Politicians start canvassing the streets with little baskets in hand, asking people what worries them. For major businessmen and bankers it probably starts with calls for help?

That does ring familiar.

What do you say when, for example, Priit Sibul calls you to ask for five thousand euros?

I turn him down. I may have given a little to Kaja Kallas' Reform Party. But what I want to say is do your work, I'll live my own life and you can live yours.

Why not donate? You have money.

I don't have enough to just hand it out to anyone without a second thought.

Why do you say Hillar Teder is foolish for spending hundreds of thousands on political donations?

It all started back when everyone thought donating to politicians would give them a leg up in the business world. But it has been overestimated from the first. We were told that we'd receive support if we donated, but once entrepreneurs came asking for support, parties told them that they were not corrupt and therefore couldn't play favorites.

Do you mean to say that favors for donations are a thing of the past? That such one hand washes the other schemes no longer work?

Yes, there is much less of it.

Let us hark back to this summer in the Tallinn city government. Do you know the reality show "Beach House" where young people get together in the Jacuzzi and the intrigue takes off from there? No one quite understands who is dating whom or why a row suddenly breaks out in the middle of the night. Did we see something like that in the city government this summer?

Yes. I was also surprised. But I knew who the main character was and it looks like they're still the Reform Party's secretary general. They're running somewhere in the second echelon, between two strong running mates. I think they've been banned from publicly speaking by now.

Many believed it was [party leader] Kristen Michal pulling the strings, making Pärtel-Peeter Pere undertake curious maneuvers.

Nope. As far as I know, the Reform Party is still the most democratic party in that regional branches get to decide their own affairs. Rather, there were attempts to pull Kristen Michal into it, as things go in politics.

Does this mean, looking at their rating and likely failure at these elections, the party has understood they're in crisis?

They have at least realized they are in crisis and it seems to me that they've managed to bring some order into their ranks by introducing two strong mayoral candidates — Urmas Sõõrumaa and Maris Lauri.

Sõõrumaa cannot possibly be a serious candidate?

I think it would be great if Sõõrumaa became mayor.

He is a major real estate developer in Tallinn. What is he going to do, sign his own detailed plans?

It seems you haven't worked in a city government. They even brought a criminal case against me. "Look at what a mess you've signed here." But I told them, "Dearies, when a mayor signs a document, they don't know whether it's the right thing to do." Someone puts something on your desk and you check whether all the formalities have been ticked off, whether committees and the city council have discussed it and made a decision. That is all the mayor's signature means.

City officials watch the mayor's every move in terms of whether something needs to be approved or not. Let's be honest, that's also how it works in Tallinn.

I get your point, trying to think your way. But thinking of current U.S. President Donald Trump, the right guy making the right calls means democracy can be stretched out a little, while there's no room for that in the case of a stooge. Officials tend to be pretty smart.

I think Sõõrumaa would make a great mayor. Maris Lauri makes a great mayoral candidate. I pass by a poster of Sõõrumaa every day here in Haabersti. It has a very nice slogan: "Think about who you would trust with 11.3 percent of your salary." I suppose that's how much of your wages goes to the city government. Whom would I give it to? Urmas Sõõrumaa, Maris Lauri, [Jevgeni] Ossinovski, Lavly Perling.

Would you give it to Mihhail Kõlvart?

Rather not, but I also don't think Kõlvart is a threat in any way. That said, there are all manner of clowns. I wouldn't give it to Isamaa! Their main campaign slogan is "No to tax increases." That's harebrained! It has nothing to do with these [local] elections.

How so? As a businessman, that slogan should make you jump for joy.

This reminds me of Family Feud. A hundred random people are asked a question and the right answer is what they say it is. You end up with the host asking: "What do cows drink?" and the correct answer is milk because that is what 33 people said off the top of their heads. That's how it is with "No to tax increases." [Ironically] That's right, Reinsalu! We'll all vote for you. But if that is the majority, that's the kind of city you need to live in. But we'll be fine even then. After all, people have been living here for thousands of years.

Or maybe Isamaa is right in that looking at the last few years' tax circus, the situation really is quite absurd. Inflation is rallying. Has life become too expensive? What should we say when milk is too expensive? Estonia is in a particular customs zone and people can go live in Spain if they think milk is cheaper there. Generally speaking, Estonia is like a Nordic country and Nordic countries have high income and high taxes. That is the goal. It's a problem of low incomes, not expensive milk.

But what's the solution? We're running a record deficit, are basically borrowing ourselves bust. Your children, my children will have to repay those loans in the future. The state of the Estonian economy is not looking good.

That's not how I see it. First of all, we have Russia's war and budgets have been upturned everywhere as a result. It's not a specifically Estonian problem. It is a problem for all of Europe and Estonia is among the best examples [of how to cope]. Historically, nothing has helped other than printing more money. In other words, inflation will cancel it out. Where you're ten billion short today will hardly be a problem in a decade's time.

So, your message to Oleg Gross and Indrek Neivelt is to calm down because this too shall pass?

Definitely in the case of Neivelt. I don't know what Gross has been saying.

Gross is cursing the government every other day.

You need to tell the difference between those who are saying that stuff is too expensive and those saying they make too little money.

But what would you say to the Rakvere tycoon? He sees people who are struggling to buy food. He cannot afford to pay his sales assistants decent salaries and is calling for the government to put an end to it.

Life's pretty poor in Rakvere then. What can you do. People's lives are what they make of them.

Are you suggesting they move to Tallinn?

Everyone lives as best as their wings can carry them. I know friends who have moved to the Canary Islands because they can't make ends meet [in Estonia]. You don't need anything there [in the Canaries] and everything is so cheap you can get by. You don't need heating and the food costs next to nothing, but who wants to sit in the heat their whole life?

Are you joking? Most people dream about spending a single week in the Canaries.

Precisely, a week. Whether they'd like to spend their whole lives there is another matter entirely.

Jüri Mõis, you've made it no secret that you were glad to see Donald Trump elected U.S. president.

I was in principle. I realized it shortly before [the elections]. I was on the Democrats' side and did not believe Trump would win, but I realized a month before elections that it would be better if he did.

Better for us?

Yes.

Do you believe Donald Trump will defend Estonia should it come to that?

Yes, of course. NATO will, not Donald Trump!

But the decision needs to be made by no other than the man with the pearly whites in the White House.

The man with the Hollywood smile will leave in three years. Three and a half. That's a non-issue. I watch a lot of international news and when the Ukraine war started, there were a lot of concerned people who said that the problem is not that we won't get rid of them, it's that they can destroy a lot of things here.

Do you have a plan for the worst case scenario?

Yes, but what would you call the worst case scenario? I cannot imagine.

The Russians coming here, flying their drones across the River Narva. What will you do? Will you board up your windows here or move to Spain?

I haven't acquired real estate abroad. I have no such fears. One of my son-in-laws is an Estonian Defense Forces officer and he's in great spirits. He says, let them come! NATO is our plan and we've seen that it works on numerous occasions. I think the risk was greatest when Estonia's defense concept was having to last independently for three days. Now we have [Operation] Eastern Sentry. The Americans have signed the icebreakers contract. The shipyard is right around the corner in Vuosaari. So, it's not a serious issue! No one will come haunting us with drones.

Do you hold it realistic that Donald Trump can end the Ukraine war? Or is he simply after the Nobel Peace Prize after which he'll promptly forget all about Ukraine.

I agree with the sentiment, but only insofar as the longer Russia remains and is worn out in this war, the better for the West. To destroy this axis of evil, we need to wear them down, let them empty their armories.

Does that mean it's the beginning of the end for Russia?

The beginning of the end came in the 1990s when the Soviet Union collapsed in front of our very eyes. As unbelievable as it seemed back then. I see no other sensible path. I do not believe Russia's nuclear saber-rattling and I also think no sensible person believes the Russians capable of destroying the world. First of all, man is not powerful enough to destroy all creation and, as Alar Karis likes to point out, the Russians will be blown up in their own backyard before they get the chance to launch all their missiles.

Is Trump a serious person in your view? We are in the middle of several wars, Russian fighters are constantly violating NATO airspace and he appears before the UN General Assembly to talk about the organization's uselessness. That the escalator is broken and the teleprompters don't work.

I did catch that. And it is indeed uncomfortable for me to watch how he sometimes addresses his competitors in a very poor manner. That said, you need to speak in a language your adversary can understand. Let's say that if your enemies are not in America, but in Russia, then that's how you need to talk because the Russians are much worse still! You need to match your competitor's choice of weapon, but any Russian end will come very unexpectedly.

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