He told ERR Estonia's game industry is still in its formative stages, but is still growing. He also addressed the question: "Are video games art"?

Mike Klubnika (real name Mikk Maasik) is arguably one of Estonia's most currently successful independent game developers. Two years ago, his game "Buckshot Roulette" got to be a true internet sensation. As of now, his games have reached millions of people around the world, all of whom have spoken highly of his games' good-natured, gritty and industrial visual style, tense and morbid atmosphere, original game mechanics, sound design, and overall techno-dystopian world-creation.

Last week, Klubnika released his newest game, "Machine Party," even as he just turned 24. ERR sat down with Mike to talk about how he started making games, where his first success came from, what kind of stories he has to tell, and how he sees the gaming industry performing in Estonia overall.

Although you just released a new game, I'd like to start from the very start. How did you get to be a game developer?

While I was in school, I primarily spent my free time on 3D art and experimented with all sorts of different things – models and renders, animations, and sound design on top of that. I did that for about three years, then I thought it would be cool to try making a computer game. I did make one computer game with a friend while at school but it was still pretty rudimentary, highly primitive, so I thought I'd try again. About three or four years later, I took on a project and finished a computer game. Its name was "System Upkeep". After that, I just kept going, and it turned out to be a lot of fun.

What games did you grow up with?

At first, it was the games that my friends were playing. Mostly "Counter-Strike", for sure, but at some point I started trying out more new games – for example, "Outer Wilds" was a huge inspiration. Also various smaller horror games made by indie developers. I started getting more and more interested in the indie scene.

What games are you playing now? Do you even still play video games yourself?

I certainly do play, but definitely less than before, and mostly with friends. In my free time, I've recently been playing "White Knuckle," solo, which was really cool. I also played the new versions of "Resident Evil 4" and "Silent Hill", as well as "Mosa Lina", which were also great.

What does it mean to be an independent game developer? What does a typical working day look like?

A typical working day mostly means tinkering at the computer. Much also depends on what stage the project is at: Sometimes this is several weeks of programming, sometimes several weeks of modeling, plus sound design in between. There's quite a lot of variety when working in a small team — you get to do sound, visuals, and design.

Since you handle all the different aspects of game development yourself, what does that process look like? Where do you start, or where does the inspiration come from?

Inspiration usually derives from other games, films, and books. But in general, there will be a very simple design, vision, or just an idea of what the game should be at the start. Then, depending on the design, you gradually take on smaller pieces and put them together until a whole emerges.

Generally, it's certainly time-consuming. At the moment, my projects have a timeline of about six to eight months, and it usually takes several weeks or even months before they start to resemble a computer game, instead of just a collection of small isolated prototypes that don't quite fit together.

'Buckshot Roulette' is the game that was the springboard for your success. Where do you think its mass popularity came from two years ago?

I think that compared with my other games, it was the most "computer-gamey" computer game I had created so far. The previous games were less games, and more experiences or stories. With "Buckshot", the main focus wasn't the story, but rather the mechanics.

"Buckshot" actually started as a board game that I designed. I tested it out with friends — not even in real life, but via "Tabletop Simulator", where you can rapidly design all kinds of board games. We tried it out there, and it worked really well. The rest of development was simply turning that board game into a computer game.

I think there was also another reason why "Buckshot" was much more popular. When people watched others play, instead of watching a story through to the end, they thought: "Okay, this guy isn't very good at this game — I want to try it out for myself".

How did you feel when [noted influencers] Markiplier, Jacksepticeye, and all the other YouTube big names started playing your game?

I thought it was really cool, but at the same time, it wasn't a huge surprise to me, as actually several years before "Buckshot", Markiplier and some other big name YouTubers had already been trying out my games. The difference with "Buckshot" was that those videos helped the game go viral even more. It just kept spreading, and in the end, it was truly amazing for me. Which was of course, also very, very cool.

Your games all share broadly similar characteristics: A similar visual language, aesthetics, and themes. They're all somewhat oppressive, violent, and morbid, but also interlaced with some dark humor. What would you say your games are all about?

In general I like games, films, and books which are tragedies and horrors — especially science fiction, which is a huge inspiration. I think the main thread that runs through these games is simply: What is the most horrifying thing you can do to a person using modern tech? Ideas like that are very interesting to me and provide a lot of inspiration — for example, "Black Mirror" is one of the major influences.

You said that your more popular games don't have a classical narrative as such, but instead the storytelling happens on another level. This is also evidenced by the numerous "lore" videos on YouTube. What is your own philosophy when it comes to storytelling?

I think much of this is game-dependent. For example, "Machine Party" and "Buckshot" both fall into that category where story is certainly not the main focus. But I think that for the overall vibe and aesthetics which arise from different scenarios, to support how those spaces are built, lore is significant. In this case, we're not just talking about a game either — it also belongs to a larger whole when viewed from a storytelling perspective.

Have you articulated a canon of your own for your games, or have you purely left that to the fans?

With "Buckshot", the canon I had in my head when I made the game and what players talk about among themselves are two completely different things. At the same time, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that — it's fascinating to see how different people interpret what happens in these games.

"Machine Party" definitely has a more extensive canon, as there are aspects with it that tie into several of my earlier games. Now that the game has been out for almost a week, people have also started spotting those details, which is really nice.

How much do you connect or communicate with your fan base? How important is the community to you?

This is very important to me — that fans who have played my earlier games come back to try my new ones.

I don't currently have any major official channels where people could chat with each other about these games. But I've noticed that they've sprung up organically across various platforms such as Discord and Reddit. I definitely support those — I think they're really great. A large number of people also write to me directly by email, and I try to reply to as many as possible. It matters to me.

What do they write to you about?

Some send me fan art, some ask what software I use, or whether they can utilize some of the music somewhere. They're always pleasant messages, and they make me very happy.

Your games are all somewhat short-form. Is that mainly because you're a solo developer, or do you just enjoy making shorter games?

I personally also like the smaller games that last an hour or two. But purely from a development perspective, this is also much easier. Since making games is so time-consuming, I can't even conceive of how long it would take me to make a game that would last over six hours — that would take several years. At some point, it would be cool to do something like that, but for now, I think it's fun to try out lots of different shorter ideas.

Tell me a bit about your new game "Machine Party". What kind of a game is it, how did the release go, and what has the initial feedback been like?

With my friends, we call it "Masinapidu" as it just sounds really good in Estonian. The game is mainly inspired by Nintendo's "Mario Party" and other games that bring together smaller games and bundle them into one whole.

Within "Machine Party", there are 15 different smaller games in all, all of them set in a horrifying computer simulation in which characters get trapped in various scenarios and are being experimented on. Each mini-game usually culminates in one player being alive and the rest dead. Players go through these scenarios, amass points, then at the end there's a tense climax. This is primarily a party game, and the release has gone very well so far. People like it, and I'm generally very pleased.

Has the development process for this game been different from your previous ones, or has it presented any new challenges?

I think the main difference is certainly that this is the first major project I haven't worked on alone. I worked together with my friend GDeavid, who handled most of the programming side, while I did the art, sound design, and animation. It was a very new experience to take on such a big project with another person. Overall, things went really well — the collaboration was smooth and everything worked out great.

Did any major bugs creep in?

Some bugs have come up, but nothing major. Technically, it's all generally very stable. The game can currently only be played online, but when we released it in April, many people wanted to play it together on a big screen, with controllers. So now we're mainly working on adding that option. I think it'll be great.

In the wake of the coronavirus time, a new subgenre of games emerged called "friendslop," meaning games that are fun to play with friends, but don't necessarily aspire to any higher artistic values. It seems to me that you're trying to bridge that gap. Is that something you do consciously, or you think about?

I think there are two types of games in the friendslop category. I'd say some are genuinely good computer games, while the other half are more like start-up bros who see that friendslop generates revenues very easily, and they then try to cobble something together quickly and see how it goes.

"Machine Party" is largely a party game, but alongside the mini-games, it also has a larger narrative. That was one of the main goals — to have something more going on in the background. There's definitely a kind of, I don't know if it's a message exactly, but some sort of commentary on the friendslop genre in it.

You managed to break through while pretty young. What advice would you give to other young people who dream of following your path?

I recommend making small games. With a short game that you can finish in two or three weeks, you basically cycle through the entire process. You will see all the parts that need to be done, and then you can just repeat it — and next time you'll already know exactly what steps you need to take.

Generally, I'd say just make something fun and interesting — (uses the English phrase) "have fun with it".

What is your assessment of the state of the Estonian gaming industry?

Looking at how many games come out in Estonia each year, the Estonian computer game industry is still relatively in its infancy compared to, for example, Sweden or some other countries. But I think it's slowly growing. I believe in it, and I hope that more Estonian games and developers will emerge. It seems to me that it's generally being promoted — for example, various student societies at universities organize game jams . and other events. In September comes Mängudeöö ("Game Night"). Tipilan is also really cool — first, this is Estonia's largest LAN event (where people bring their computers or consoles to a physical venue and link them via a LAN to play together – ed.), but they will also showcase games developed in Estonia. It's great, and I hope it all continues to grow.

What are your plans for the immediate future?

Right now, I want to finish off "Machine Party," which means adding in the big-screen local multiplayer mode. After that... I have several interesting ideas, and I'll see which one works best and then move on to the next project.

Is it your feeling that video games are still in some sense undervalued as a medium in Estonia's cultural space?

I can't say for sure. I think that in the circles I move in, video games are valued. Certainly, some people don't value them, but that's just how things are.

My final question: Are video games art?

I think they certainly are. There are so many different artistic aspects — sound design, visual design, graphic design, and so on. There's certainly also a dividing line somewhere though: For example, looking at what some crypto-scammers refer to as "video games" — that is not art.

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